ThaFormula.com - How hard has it been the last couple of years with what went down with your old label Nu Gruv?

Zion - It's definitely been a challenge man. You know we had a one-album deal with our old label Ground Control, so after we did "Mind Over Matter" it was basically over. We didn't really feel they did that good a job with that record because of mis-management and the label was bullshittin'. After we dropped that we were just kind of in limbo, then finally we reluctantly went back to deal with them and then low and behold our instincts told us the truth. We didn't really pay attention but they went out of business I'd say about 7 months after we resigned another deal with them. We had already completed the new album, "Deep Water Slang" the first version. So after that the label closed up and we had to find another label. We found Raptivism thankfully and we made that happen, but you know that was over a course of 2 years you know what I'm sayin? We dropped "Mind Over Matter" in 2000. By the time we were looking for a deal it was already 2001. So now it's 2003 and the new album is just about to come out. So it's been a real challenge.

ThaFormula.com - Now a lot of artists we have spoken to believe that 2002 was one of the worst years for Hip-Hop if not the worst ever. Do you feel the same way?

Amp - I think it's probably been the worst year in all genres of music actually, not just Hip-Hop. I think it just has to do with the economy and the way people are thinking right now. In the late 70's to the 80's music was sort of going through the same thing. The Disco or whatever was movin' to like the Heavy Metal type phase. From what I remember and from what many people told me, the industry was down. Cats weren't buyin' albums because there was so many copy cat groups and just the quality of music was bad until something came out new or fresh. 'Cause right now nobody is really coming out with anything new.

ThaFormula.com - How much Hip-Hop have you listened to this year?

Amp - To tell you the truth I listen to a lot, but not as much as I used to. For the past couple of years I've been listening to a lot of rock. A lot of Rock and Electronic music and stuff like that, but not as much Hip-Hop man.

ThaFormula.com - I hear a lot of MC's and producers talk about how they don't listen to much Hip-Hop nowadays if any at all. How as a producer do you try to advance Hip-Hop to that next level if your not listening to what is being done out there?

Amp - Well, from a production standpoint like for real, I do music. I do all kinds of music and I think music in general is just expression and Hip-Hop is a type of way of expressing your music and it's something I grew up with and that's in me. So me not listening to it or whatever doesn't mean that I'm out of touch, It's just that sometimes I have to sort of give it a rest and maybe come back to it and add something fresh to it. When stuff just gets so tired and worn out, you can't keep on just beating a dead nail. You gotta lift the nail up and put a new nail in there and so you know it's just over saturated. I mean listen to the radio man, if you don't have a Neptunes cut or something that sounds like a Neptunes song, it's not gonna get put in the mix. It's been like that for the past couple of years and it's just like the music industry in terms of Hip-Hop has been so corporate and just saturated with the same type of stuff that people have gotten just worn out. That's why I think people just flock to "neo-soul" and that type of stuff so fast. I mean no disrespect to the Neptunes, but that type of beat and stuff has just monopolized the radio.

ThaFormula.com - What was the last album that actually blew you away when you heard it?

Amp - I liked "The Blueprint." It didn't blow me away, but I liked "The Blueprint" a lot. I liked "Stillmatic" a lot.

ThaFormula.com - Actually what I meant to ask was when was the last time an artist blew you away that didn't come out in that early 90's era? Can you think of one?

Amp - Man, not really.

ThaFormula.com - So if it's been close to ten years since some group came up and just changed the game up, do you think that we're in some serious trouble?

Amp - Well, okay you got to look at it 2 different ways man. Man, we're talkin' about an art form that has developed with us. This is actually our music man. Think about it. We been listening to this tuff for the past 28 years so it's like how much different can it really get. I mean you can only do so much. Now what can stay real to me is the feeling that you get from it, but in terms of being innovative and all that, man we have heard it all and I think every generation feels like that with the music that was around. Like with Rock, with Jazz and that's why their hasn't been anymore Miles Davis'. I think the world is a circle so things are gonna go around and everything is reinvented, but in terms of being "oh my god, that's something totally different," I don't know if I'm really gonna feel that way in Hip-Hop again. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It's just that we're used to it.

ThaFormula.com - Do you ever think about how when we were kids we were getting fed some very dope conscious Hip-Hop compared to the bullshit that the kids of today are getting fed?

Amp - They are getting fed that, but it's like your right in once sense but then again we're not their age so we really can't say how they look at the stuff and really how it's affecting them in terms of the quality of the music. I mean think about groups like Blackalicious and The Roots or something like that. Some of these groups aren't as caught up in like the mainstream message. There is a lot of kids out there who probably still are enjoying them, but to us they may not be as innovative like when we heard Tribe's "Low End Theory" or whatever. To them it might be because it's newer to them. So I can't say it's changed like that 'cause we're just older man. I work with some kids now and they're just like "Yo, I'm part of a different generation of Hip-Hop. He's like, Rakim was dope to me but Tupac is my Rakim. I may look at him and be like what! But it's real you know what I mean.

ThaFormula.com - Do you think the lawsuits over sampling had a lot to do with what's happening now?

Amp - I think in a way it did because of greed, but if you really think about it though it's just like everybody has to eat. So if you're taking somebody's music and your sampling it, then they deserve to get paid from that. Now if your gonna get super greedy with it and be charging cats like 5 million dollars or like the corporations do it, then that's a problem. I definitely believe that cats do need to get paid. I mean I sample and I would be willing to pay people.

ThaFormula.com - How long have you been makin' beats now man?

Amp - I've been producin' now for about 12 years or so. I started out with a Sonic EPS, and now I use like an MPC and you know various keyboards that I can get my hands on.

ThaFormula.com - Do you agree with what most producers say, that it's not what equipment you use but how you use it?

Amp - Yeah, I do agree with that. You just gotta make sure it's knockin' man. I can tell you this man, for at least the last couple of years, the MPC has been a studio standard and it's been a reason because of that. Being a producer and even an MC, you always have to be aware of your surroundings and what's going on also. Always believe you wanna update but then you wanna have your own style too, but you definitely got to keep current. Right now cats just aren't makin' all their music on ASR 10's and stuff because that era is just out. Now I hold on to my ASR 10, but I don't use that like I used to.

ThaFormula.com - Does it ever piss you off that you got all these big time wack producers with incredible budgets and equipment making sorry ass shit? Do you ever say to yourself "If I had what these dudes had, I would be doing this or this?"

Amp - I feel like who am I to judge man. Like if their stuff is that wack in a way. I try not to put that energy out there in terms like just really being mad at them, but I will say this. Your right, I do wish that I did have more money to put towards production and doing a studio. I do think some people have gotten by on certain stuff. But I wouldn't want somebody sayin' that about me. I'm just doing my thang. I see what you're sayin' though man. I think some people have definitely come up and they probably shouldn't have come up as hard or they just caught like a lucky wave or something like that. I think you got to work with what you got and like a lot of cats don't even have that much and they are making bangin' stuff. Some cats have too much and they don't know what to do with it.

ThaFormula.com - What stops you from makin' some sucka shit and takin' that up to a major in the hope of getting some sucka cash and becoming part of the machine?

Amp - Well I think what stops me is that I always wanna be original and I always want somebody to be "yo that sounds like a Amp Live beat," or "That sounds like something different." I'm really never satisfied with my stuff so I'm always trying to push to do something different. I think that's what sort of pushes me and also Zion and stuff. It's like this man, I think some people like uh, they may work for the city of Oakland but when they go home they make beats. I mean you got to put food on your table up to a certain point. In terms of doing music sometimes you have to make stuff that is a little bit more conformable and then that will enable you to do what you wanna do later on and it's just different sacrifices people have to make. I don't necessarily like working with certain artists that may be sayin' some stuff that I don't believe in. If it's not to bad I may give on this one because they are putting more money in my pocket and I can take that money and spend it on something that I'm really, really behind. So it's like a threshold of what I can take.

ThaFormula.com - Now Zion, what stops you from makin' some sucka shit and takin' that up to a major in the hopes of getting some sucka cash and becoming part of the machine?

Zion - Self-respect you know what I'm sayin'? I look out in the world and I'm not seeing the corporation supporting the ghetto or poor people or disenfranchised people. So for me that's really what music is about. Makin' people smile on a bad day or just helpin' them to think about something in a different light that will give them some hope and inspiration. That's way more important for me. I mean of course like Amp was sayin', you gotta eat, but we're not house niggaz you know what I'm sayin'? I'm not trying to support people that really decimated my ancestors on the real. Not that I have anything against any particular group of people but it's like, if cats can get on and get major distribution and still be kickin' the same lyrics and touch some folks kind of like a Rage Against the Machine or how Public Enemy did it, then that's cool. But to just go out and not be able to look at myself in the mirror like "This is what you stand for?" Nah, I'd rather have respect for myself when I see myself then to feel like I'm going out for some shit that I can't take with me when I die anyway.

ThaFormula.com - Now a lot of people have been sayin' that in order to make it in this business you have to play the so called game. If you don't follow the rules of the game your not gonna make it in this industry. Do you agree with that and let's say you were a DJ and they told you, "yo in order to play on this station, you have to play these SUCKA! records." What would you do?

Zion - I mean it's kind of branching off the question you just asked me in a way, but also we can look at it a different way like the book "The Spook Who Sat By the Door." It's about this gang leader in the 60's who goes off to the Army and comes home. He's a revolutionary but nobody really knows right. So he joins the CIA, gets a job in the CIA, works for them and passes all the tests. He ends up being the best applicant for the job or whatever, but they don't give him the job cause he's black. But just through takin' the test even though he's passin' it, but they failing him, just from takin' the test he learns their whole ideology and philosophy. He takes a job there just being a secretary basically, and that's why they call it "The Spook Who Sat By the Door." He works there for like 5 years, bounces and goes back to Chicago and teaches all the gang members in Chicago everything he learned from the CIA. Then they set out for revolution and the bookends. So if your gonna do it on that tip then yeah it's cool man. If your gonna get in and not really compromise yourself or just act like you're compromising yourself, but slippin' jewels under the pillow or under the rug for others who are trying to get some true thought out there cool. But if you're just gonna try to get on and go for self, I mean that's what everybody is already doing man. If you do get swept up in it your gonna play yourself. I just think it takes a high degree of self-consciousness and foundation in who you are to play that game. Not getting swept up, because we seen all kind of cats get caught up in the whirlwind man, and it's hard to stop when like you get a million dollars for this all of a sudden because you started talkin' about bitches and hoes. All of a sudden you're getting' paychecks so you can help your mama out. So for a lot of people it's very difficult to go back and be like forget that I don't want that money cause your mama still needs some money. So what do you do? I feel the best thing would be for us to set up our own routes of articulating this culture.

ThaFormula.com - But realistically, we have seen what happens when these artists, radio personalities, etc. that we used to be down with goes to that other side. They never return. So in that book it's cool, but it seems that in the real world it hasn't really happened.

Zion - I feel like there is a couple of cats man. You gotta look at Master P who attempted to buy Magnolia projects so he could give his peoples free housin', but the government wouldn't let him. LL is doing a little bit of stuff like kid's camps.

ThaFormula.com - But how does he explain the music he's doing now?

Zion - I feel that at a certain level we have to give our artists latitude to be who they are and to witness their growth on another level, which I don't think we're doing. We also need to uphold them to certain standards of communicating something that we can grow with, 'cause really in all actuality the truth of the matter is that when these cats like Funk Flex is comin' up from the underground, getting on Hot 97 and all of a sudden he's dictating the taste and everything getting paid. We the audience, the people ain't holdin' him accountable. We sponsor his shit. Once he's on TV and he's tellin' us, we believe him.

ThaFormula.com - My thing is that when you heard LL back in the day, you were hearin' LL with his own style. Now I hear LL rhymin', Neptunes on the beat and an R&B singer on the hook.  I mean it may be a cool song but it's the same format as every other MC. Where is the LL who used to separate himself from the rest of the pack and come with some straight up original shit?

Zion - Well most shit right now is imitation. There are very few cats on a major label that I feel like are not imitating right now. It's pop culture man. It's American Culture Society. That's how the people like it because we're all victims of programming man, and socialization. Record label executives will be like "Ok, you're here and we're spending this much money on you." We're talkin' about cats who have never been in the streets but their parents were in the industry so they have come up in the industry with money. They're like "Ok these are the market changes, these are what we're seliin more, songs like this are just statistically more successful then these other songs, you need to do this." The artist is sitting there like "well maybe I don't wanna do that." But they're (the label) is like "listen do 3 songs like this on your album, those will be your singles and the rest of the songs on your album you can say whatever you want" and that's what cats do a lot of times yo. They're like "fuck it as long as I got 3 singles I can sacrifice that and that's what happens."

ThaFormula.com - In the underground there's a lot of unity, but not with the major artists or players in the industry. Why is it that these millionaire artists can't get together and reach back to artists like yourself and others and say "Yo, I respect what you're doing and we feel that this needs to get out to the public." Even in the underground it seems like there is a lot of little cliques that you have to be down with.

Zion - No doubt, no doubt.

ThaFormula.Com - There is a lot of cliques going on and if you're alone, your on your own. Nobody is there to try and help you out. Let's take L.A. for example. I have been noticing and people have been very quiet about this, that if your not rollin' with a certain clique out here in L.A. your not getting no play on the radio on the underground stations.

Zion - This is true, this is true.

ThaFormula.com - Maybe I was to young to notice it back in the day, but I remember there was a lot more unity back then in the underground?

Zion - Well you know the deal though.

ThaFormula.com - Yeah, I know the deal but a lot of these kids out there don't and they need to know because everybody is an MC or producer nowadays.

Zion - Well it's like if you got a pie and you divide it into 6 pieces right? And you give 5 of the pieces to 2 people and then the rest of the 10 people who are at the table got to fight for that one piece then you gonna get some dissension. Your gonna get some survivor type shit. It's survival of the fittest and that's how we are programmed to think. Man we're programmed to think as individuals. Like my culture man, being an African of African descent in America, my ancestors man that's all it was about, was community and that's the only way we could really survive. Especially during slavery. But as we got out of that the idea was like "now you got to make money," and I feel like were lured continually out of being community oriented to where we are individuals who think of ourselves as individuals. That's all we have is us. Then we go to do all we can to make our life successful and forget about everybody else. So we are so lonely and trapped. Then you get that sense of desperation like "fuck it, I'm gonna cut your neck to get my shit." People don't wanna work together no more cause they are scared of what the other person is gonna do. They are scared that they are not gonna be able to eat.

ThaFormula.com - So should we just face the facts that the days of old when you could here quality Hip-Hop on mainstream radio stations will never happen again?

Zion - Well no. I don't think we should face that fact and I don't think it is a fact because I think the winds of change are swift and you never know. Tides change man and there is always reactions to shit. I don't ever think we should give up. Plus I been to like Brazil for instance right. Radio down there tripped me the fuck out man. Driving down the street in San Paul and these cats are playin' Pep Love, then they jump to Jay-Z, then they jump to Micronots, then they jump to Snoop. It's the craziest thing. Damn that's Hip-Hop right there. There are no divisions, it's just music. So it exists, but America is Babylon. I mean it's tough, it's difficult.

ThaFormula.com - The thing that's killing me man is that I turn on the radio and all I hear is noise. The thing is I'm not the only one sayin' it. More and more people seems to be sayin' it and complaining, but when are we actually gonna do something about it?

Zion - That's what I'm sayin' man. The power is in the Hip-Hop legions and masses of people who support and lead this culture. It's in our hands man. If we ever stopped and got together and was like "yo fuck that, we ain't watchin fuckin' bullshit ass rap city, and we sure as hell ain't watchin' Direct bullshit ass Effect." "I'm not going to this muthafuckas concert, I'm going to see muthafuckas who are from where I'm from and do what I think is real," then you will see a change. But like I'm sayin man, as long as cats are sheep and ain't trying to wake up to corporate manipulation, it ain't gonna happen. But you're right, muthafuckas should speak up.

ThaFormula.com - When KRS stepped to PM Dawn, what did you say?

Zion - I loved that shit.

ThaFormula.com - That's what a lot of artists seem to say. But what happened? Back then if you were a biter you got dissed!

Zion - You know what man that's a dope observation, but at the same time look how we have changed in Hip-Hop. Back then you get into a fight or muthafuckas would get bumrushed or beatdown. Bumrush the show PE you know what I'm sayin? Now what it is is, "Pistol Grip Pump on my lap at all times" or "What happened to that boy". Muthafuckas is pullin' out guns and blowin' off heads. If you bumrush somebody on stage nowadays, you're likely to catch 5 to the chest and that's just how we are. Look at these muthafuckas beefin' man. Look at like Ja Rule, 50 cent, 2Pac, Biggie, Foxy Brown, Lil Kim. It's like come on man. It's like we have upped the ante to where the money has gotten so important it's just poisoned the water man and people have turned on each other. So it's hard to check a fool. I mean you can check a fool on record.

ThaFormula.com - But you know what's really upsetting me the most is you got wack MC's dissin' wack MC's. What upsets me is why don't the dope MC's diss these wack MC's more. I mean they know deep inside they are thinkin' it. I know that when I talk to them they know they are thinkin' it, 'cause they will say it off the record, but nobody wants to say anything on wax so how are we gonna change everything if we don't make sacrifices for the culture?

Zion - Well answer me this one question so I could go further. Name me 3 MC's that you consider wack?

ThaFormula.com - I can name you a hundred but here's 3. Nelly, Ja-Rule and Ludicrous.

Zion - Okay that's enough. Ja-Rule, I agree even though I think he's got skills but he's just comin' super wack. I think Ludicrous is a dope rapper.

ThaFormula.com - I just don't agree man and I think if Ludicrous was around in the early 90's he would have been one of those MC's thrown of the stage. I just can't get with someone rhymin' about "oh oh spaghetti o's." That's just not my thing. In fact a lot of homies that I grew up with stopped listening to Hip-Hop because of MC's like Ludicrous.

Zion - Now I feel you there.

ThaFormula.com - I mean I even know artists that don't tell their own friends that they are MC's because they are embarrassed. 'Cause the first thing they are gonna think is that they are just like these clowns makin' a mockery of Hip-Hop.

Zion - And you know what, that's a muthafuckin' shame right there man. That's a shame man 'cause I see the same thing. I see like, I'm comin up to sisters or brothers in my age group like "yo check this out we got a show tonight." They're looking at me like, "This is hip hop?" I'm like "yeah" and they're like "Whatever." The whole vibe is like "nah that don't speak to me at all," and that to me is offensive and makes me say "damn this shit is totally degenerated man," because it's like after '93. After then you had the Tribes, Cypress Hill and whatever. That whole little golden age right there and you got into like the super thug life with Pac and Biggie when they started takin' it out there. After they left bro, the whole shit just got super sensational like a tabloid. It no longer had that essence of like real struggle. Even Nas, who god bless dropped a couple songs on Stillmatic and he dropped a couple of joints on God's Son where he's trying to say something. I mean when I first heard Illmatic the first album, I was like this muthafucka is sick with real shit, political commentary and everything at the same time. He moved away from that shit and went to the drug dealer shit, then like it seems like now he's finally on his way back. If cats could just do it like that just the way he did it like "okay I'm not totally on this side, I'm kind of riding this borderline of what I know is right and what I'm livin," and just tellin' you that. I can respect that man. If cats would just do more of that, I think the game would even up more. It would give like what you sayin', real MC's and cats who have maybe a stronger or more street message more shine or daylight to say what we got to say 'cause there would be more acceptance of it. But when it's so like soap opera type of shit and hoes and guns it don't leave any room to say anything to the contrary 'cause it's so extreme.

ThaFormula.com - If Africans and Latinos had control of the major labels, do you think that Hip-Hop would be better now or do you think we still would have found a way to fuck it all up?

Zion - Honestly, I don't know how much better it would be. Actually I do think it would be a little better cause were good people man and we know what time it is and we work together and we do have community. So I would hope that shit would be better, but the reality of fact is that I know just as many black devils as I do white devils. That's just the real. People are people, so yeah that's a nice thing to entertain in my mind but I don't know man. I think if there was like a community based who started runnin' these labels and shit like that, yeah it would be different. But you know there are crack drug dealers that are Black and Latino and I understand everybody has gotta eat, but when you kill a thousand to feed yourself and your homies or whatever, come on man that ain't community right there. I understand the economic pressures and the hardship of strugglin' but it's like the game is sick man.

ThaFormula.com - Here's another thing that really upsets me. I walk into a record label and I see who is working there. How did people who have no knowledge about real Hip-Hop or even Hip-Hop in general get up in the labels?

Zion - I don't have an answer to that question, but I could give you an example of that okay. We were signed to Tommy Boy in '93. Me and my homies from Atlanta, Amp Live included, we went up to the New York offices at Tommy Boy for the first time. We're all hyped and we don't know what the hell is going on for real. We sit down in the label offices and this white lady with red hair and blue eyes comes out the back and starts tellin' us you know "I like this, I like that, but this song is not that tight though, you need to do that, you need to do this." Then she buzzes in this other cat. This other white dude comes in with blonde hair and starts tellin' us "yeah you know, we work with Naughty By Nature, we work with De la Soul and they do this," and we were just stuck cause we didn't know! We didn't know! I don't know how that got setup like that on the real, but I know that one of our old managers we had, his dad was in the record industry had put on some big groups in the 70's. This kid was in the industry had put out some big groups in Hip-Hop. His friends dads were in the industry. They were the biggest promoters in L.A. Their friends dads were some of the biggest music accountants in L.A. It was like a whole crew of cats that lived this lifestyle, which is a business life of music and then it contrasted to me and homies who are cats that didn't know shit about the business but just knew the art and the culture, 'cause that's what we were and where we we're from. So to see that for the first time was mind bogglin' man. Still to this day I trip of it man, which is why I have respect for cats like E-40, Jay-Z, Eazy-E, Too $hort. They got their own business on ahead of time man and set up their own labels that were really strong so they could get in a good position. On that level I totally respect them cats cause most of us is out here getting' played straight up!

ThaFormula.com - So what was it like recording this album compared to your last album and what made you come to Raptivism?

Zion - Well this album was very difficult to get out because for one the label flopped right in the middle of this shit. Also, cats was just going through personal changes in our lives so that added to the flava of the vibe on our album. We came to Raptivism man because once the label folded and sent out the battle cry like "yo we need to make this shit happen, who's down?" Them cats came at us just straight up! Like "Yo we will give you this, and do this, that's what we have to offer, Bam!" We were both kind of on the same level and I had known some of their previous releases and the name itself Raptivism appealed to me cause they are about puttin' a message in the music. So that automatically appeals to me. Once I talked to the cats and saw where their heads was at, I was just like "Yeah these cats they got a feel and they are hungry like we are."

ThaFormula.com - When is the album droppin?

Zion - It's coming out February 18th.

ThaFormula.com - What is the Hip-Hop fan out there gonna get when they pick up the Zion I album? What should they expect to hear?

Zion - I think they can expect something that they can turn up, vibe out and get some time of introspection from it man, if they just listen to it, feel the music it's nice and thick. It bumps and hopefully they can get some motivation from it or something.

ThaFormula.com - What's the track that means the most to you on this album man?

Zion I - I like "Sorry" man. Basically it's just like I was having a fucked up as day and I was going through certain shit in my life you know with my family and whatever and just vibin' off of where I'm at in my life. I went in my room and Amp was makin' a beat. I came out and I heard the beat and I think he was about to turn it off and I was like "Nah leave it playin'" and I just started writing to it. The shit I like most about it was that that was really exactly how I was feeling and that's like something in all of my songs that I wish to achieve that I'm not a master of yet. So I think that is the one song where I got the closest on this album to doing that. To just being in a vibe and saying exactly what I meant. Cause you got to constantly remind yourself to just keep working, check cats out, and remain being a fan of the music. You can't never act like you're just the shit and like your shit don't stink cause one of these young bucks will jump up and serve you and you will be like "Ah man what happened?" So that's why you gotta keep your love for this shit and that's what I try to do.

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