ThaFormula.com - Many people out there do not know who Saul Williams is because you don't fit the typical Hip-Hop category. So let's introduce Saul Williams to those that are not in the know.

Saul Williams - I'm from a place called Newburgh New York, which is an hour up state from New York City. That's where I grew up. I was born in '72, which means that the first music I remember is the first days of hip-hop. So when people talk about the park and the Bronx, I actually remember all of that. I remember my sister dragging me out and exposing me to all this stuff at a young age. Interestingly, up to the age of 18, I didn't listen to nothing else but hip-hop. I refused to listen to anything but hip-hop and I would say the most influential groups for me were, uh, it happened at different levels. I mean the first hip hop song that I heard that I loved was, "It's Yours" by T Larock in 1981, and that's what made me start rhymin' in 1981 and from there I went on to lovin' LL and Run DMC. I would say my love of hip-hop really reached its peak probably around the time Public Enemy came out. That's when hip-hop became connected with a language of youth rebellion. Before then, it was very much like it is now with the party music and what have you. Once Public Enemy, Rakim, and Krs-1 came out, which was around 1987, the voice of hip-hop really changed dramatically and became more of a cultural music. At that time being a teenager, I was moved tremendously and it became my mission to live and breathe hip-hop.
I was also very active in acting. I went to a performing arts school and was studying acting. Rhymin' was my hobby. I was a break dancer and all this stuff. So in 1990 I went to college in Atlanta and I stopped rhyming and focused more on acting. In my senior year of college, I started a magazine with some friends and started writing poetry for the magazine and got into reading that poetry. I then moved to grad school in '94 and got exposed to the underground poetry scene there, which at that time was synonymous with the underground hip-hop scene. The underground poetry scene was where you hooked up with Lyricists Lounge and Stretch and Bobbito and all the stuff that was happening in New York. So I started focusing on writing poetry alongside people like, Mos and Talib. We were all part of that poetry / underground hip-hop scene together doing the same thing. Reciting poems and doing stuff with music occasionally. So that's where I kind of blossomed the most I would say. I was basically writing poetry to fill the void between what I was hearing and what I really wanted to hear. I was becoming more and more dissatisfied with what was becoming commercial hip-hop. So I started to create on levels which I wish I could hear. I was hearing it in the underground through cats like Organized Konfusion and of course was always into De La and Tribe. But those guys had stopped getting airplay practically about that time, and it was all about the Mobb Deep's, the Jay - Z's, the Biggie's, the Dr. Dre's, the Snoop's, the Warren G's, and it was just basically time to turn off the radio and go to the underground radio shows. That's when you really had to start searching to find the dope shit, and then I started really searching inside of myself to find the dope shit as well. That's when things started for me. Around that time, I hooked up with a director who asked me to write this film with him and ended up writing this film and starring in this film called Slam, which is where I got the most exposure from. That came out in 98, right after I graduated from grad school for acting.

ThaFormula.com - How did Slam do?

Saul Williams - Commercially, it didn't do very well because it was in Art House cinemas. Basically Slam did well amongst white audiences and a lot of Black cats didn't go see it because it was at Art House theaters and not at the mall. Then, once it came out on video, everybody saw it. So now, every person regardless of race, culture, or what have you, has now been exposed to the film.

ThaFormula.com - Do you think that if it had been at the malls and at regular theaters, Black people would have went out to see it?

Saul Williams - If it was promoted properly, but the film company got extremely nervous as to how to promote it and to whether black people would go out and support it. They don't use those terms, but that's what they are talking about. "Well, what do we gotta do to get the urban population", which means how we gonna get black people to go see it. They will say, "There is not enough killing and violence" because they believe that's the only thing were into, and granted the polls do show that we support that. But I don't really believe in underestimating the intelligence of a community or what have you. I get people coming up to me everyday and I'm talkin' about thugged out characters coming up to me and saying, "Yo son, I really felt that." I get that all the time. So would they have supported it? Definitely. If it was marketed to them properly. Unfortunately the record company that was doing the soundtrack thought the way to do that was just by putting every thugged out character that they can think of on the soundtrack and it didn't really correlate with the film that well. It just had a bunch of famous people, which was the style at the time. It's the time when everybody had more special guest on their album then their own verses.

ThaFormula.com - On that soundtrack you recorded a track with Krs-1....

Saul Williams - Yeah, and we had to fight to get any poetry on that album. They didn't want any. They tried to make the soundtrack be disassociated from the film, where we were trying to make a progressive statement to say that their is an alternative approach to looking at reality. They didn't want to compliment that through the soundtrack. But yeah, I did something with Krs-1 on the soundtrack, which was very fun for me and very intimidating to be in the studio with him.

ThaFormula.com - How did that come about and how did it feel to be in the studio with Krs-1, and actually record a track together?

Saul Williams - I mean it came about simply. Slam spoke for itself. All we had to do was screen it for people and people were dying to be connected to it. At the time, there was nothing like it. I remember a screening where we had like The Fugees and you know just a group of people in the room sit down and watch this. That's all it took. Everybody wanted to contribute. I remember the next day after one of those screenings, Coolio was on Arsenio or something and he was like, "Yo man, I just watched this film and it really inspired me and I wanna recite a poem". So that's how Krs-1 wanted to be involved, after he saw the film. So that's how it came about. For me Krs-1 is probably the no. 1 mc. When I have to do my top 5 mc's, Krs-1 is in the top 3. I got Krs, Rakim and then uh, I don't know, but those are the top 2 for me. It was an amazing experience. I refused to even attempt rhyming, that's why I just read straight from my journal. I was like, I'm not even gonna come close to try and rhyme in the studio with Krs. But it was a beautiful experience.

ThaFormula.com - It seems like everybody wants to do poetry now. It seems like even the poetry scene is turning commercial.

Saul Williams - Well yeah, I think I actually played a part in that. I'm kind of a guilty culprit by doing the film. My thing is this. I'm not a loyalist to the underground. I feel blessed and thankful just to be on a quest for truth. With an ability to express what I feel on the way and I believe in screaming what I see from the loudest microphone, or you know from the highest mountaintop. I'm not afraid of cameras, nor do I feel that I'm sellin' out if cameras are there. So when we say they are trying to commercialize. We have to look at what they can do. All they can do is point cameras and supply funding. Now if the artists involved start conforming so that they can have the cameras pointed at them, it's the artists that are at fault. My whole purpose in participating in the work that I do is to see it take over the mainstream. I don't own a television, but I would love to be able to watch it and feel like it's going to feed me as opposed to drain me. If we had more control over the type of stuff that is going to be on these screens, and we can be more certain that the stuff that were on these screens and radio stations was going to feed our spirits and nurture us as opposed to making me think in terms of like, bitches and money. Then it would be much more worthwhile to be enveloped by the mainstream. What I'm saying is that I'm not afraid of the idea of commercialization as far as the simplest meaning of that which is just reaching more people. Public Enemy didn't lose their message as they reached more people. They started saying what they believed even louder because they knew there were more microphones and more people listening. So there's nothing wrong with it. It's up to the artist to maintain their stamina within the spotlight, and that's where the difficulty lies I believe.

ThaFormula.com - If someone walks into a record store, where exactly are they going to find Saul Williams?

Saul Williams - Well, If they are in a bookstore, they would find me in the poetry section or in the African American literature section. If they are in a record store, they would find me in the hip-hop section or the pop rock section. Everything that I do, I aim to do it as the art form. Like, I didn't do a poetry movie, I did a movie. I didn't do a hip-hop book, I did a book. I didn't do a poetry album, I did an album. So that I focused on it as music. I spent a great deal of time writing the music, composing, arranging, and everything. It's music and it goes in the music category. I'm not aiming to make everything that I do difficult and different. I'm just aiming to not be influenced by stuff that I don't wish to be influenced by. Nonetheless my music is in the hip-hop section. That's usually where it is.

ThaFormula.com - Now what went wrong with your album. It was supposed to have dropped almost a year ago?

Saul Williams - Yeah, what happened was that I'm on American recordings, which is Rick Rubin's label and that label was on Columbia. Basically Rick got the feeling that Columbia was not really trying to support new acts or develop artists. They wanted people that fit into like the Destiny's Child type shit. So he decided to leave the company and go back to Def Jam. So now American Recordings is now on Island Def Jam. It was that label switch up that slowed down the album coming out.

ThaFormula.com - Did the album still end up dropping in Europe?

Saul Williams - Oh, it dropped in Europe in January of 2001.

ThaFormula.com - What was the response up in Europe to your album?

Saul Williams - It's been amazing. We spent about nine months touring Europe doing all these festivals and what have you. People have really felt it and been moved by it. It's been great and we have made our mark there. It's just the whole domestic release that's been held up.

ThaFormula.com - Was the production on your album handled by you and Rick?

Saul Williams - Yeah, by me and Rick Rubin, but I wrote the music with the exception of one song that was written by my DJ Musa.

ThaFormula.com - How was it working with Rick Rubin and what made you hook up with someone like Rick?

Saul Williams - I decided to hook up with Rick primarily because of what I told you earlier. The song that made me start writing was T Larock's "It's Yours", which is the first song that Rick ever produced. I then went on to lovin' LL, which Rick produced. I then went on to lovin' Public Enemy, which Rick also produced. I went on to lovin' Run DMC, which you know Rick also produced. So my whole journey through hip-hop and even when I left hip-hop and started listening to more alternative shit like Red Hot Chili Peppers and shit like that, that was more Rick production. So without even realizing it half the time, I was a big fan of Rick's taste in music.

ThaFormula.com - Now a lot of people out there don't realize how big of an impact Rick Rubin has had on hip-hop.

Saul Williams - Exactly. I don't even know if you realize how huge of an influence he's had. Cause I can blow your mind. This is the shit that's the Illest shit right here. The first hip-hop song to ever come out with a breakbeat as opposed to a baseline and the first hip hop song to ever come out with the DJ scratching on it was T Larock's "It's yours" in 1981. So that now when we talk about hip-hop, we talk about the DJ, the breakbeat. That didn't even happen on vinyl. If you listen to the Sugarhill stuff, that was all basslines and guitar shit. It was like Disco Riffs that people rhymed over. The first song with a break beat in hip-hop was "It's Yours" by T Larock and Rick made that beat. This is what other people don't know. When T Larock is saying "do you want it, yeah". Well the people saying Yeah! in the background, that's Ad Rock and MCA from the Beastie Boys in Rick's dorm. So hip-hop has had some white collegiate influence from its start as far as the commercialization of it. It was the commercialization of hip-hop that brought the beats to the forefront. So you tell me, did we lose something there or gain something. That's how it was happening at the parties for sure, but it wasn't happening on vinyl, which Rick told me was his reason for putting a Break beat on vinyl.

ThaFormula.com - So why do you think Rick does not get the respect he deserves as far as hip-hop goes?

Saul Williams - Don't need it. He's got the money. He's not concerned about it.

ThaFormula.com - Your album is an incredible album. It reminds me of when I first heard a De La or Tribe album, which is good but at the same time I feel it's bad because a lot of people out there won't be ready to hear or understand your project...

Saul Williams - Well, yeah. I think that nowadays a lot of us have really been dumbed down. Basically from years and years of the entertainment industry underestimating the intelligence of the mainstream, we've actually started to underestimate our own intelligence. So it's actually very dangerous because music is like food. It's ingestion and for those of us that don't eat meat, but then blast this carnivorous hip-hop. It's dangerous to our minds or I should say it can be, depending on how deeply you digest it.

ThaFormula.com - Why do you think they tried to stop this progress that was being made in hip-hop through groups like Public Enemy, De la, Tribe, etc?

Saul Williams - Well, one reason was The Chronic was much more lucrative then any of that other shit. Also, it was straight up hypnotic. I mean The Chronic fucked me up, because to me the dopest beat on the album was "Bitches Ain't Shit". The craziest shit for me was that at that time yo, I was at the height of learning about misogyny and feminism. I was taking a class with a renowned feminist. Most of my classes were at an all female University (Spelman) across the street from Morehouse, where I was going. I was surrounded by women that were literally burning albums on campus and shit. I was learning all about the feminist movement and going to hear Angela Davis speak and Alice Walker and all that shit. Then "Bitches Ain't Shit" came out and I was thinkin' that was the Illest shit. I mean they took the bridge and just ripped it, but the lyrics were Bitches Ain't Shit but hoes and tricks, lick on these nuts and suck my dick! So I had to choose right there. The Chronic made me choose. Can I nod my head affirmatively to these beats and ignore what's being said, or sing along to what's being said and just use the excuse of, "Well, I don't really think like that." Meanwhile, I've stopped eating meat and all this other shit because I know the power of ingestion and I could feel how it affects me. So would I not be able to feel how this other shit affected me. It was crazy!

ThaFormula.com - So what did you do?

Saul Williams - I turned it off. I couldn't listen to it. I didn't, even though I wanted to nod my head. It's a discipline to be fucken awake in this day and age. Everything will put you to sleep and that's the most dangerous thing for us. To just become cannibals and doing what were told to do. Not thinking, but just buying into the norm and status quo.

ThaFormula.com - So how does a person stay awake in this day and age?

Saul Williams - Fucken pinch yourself every minute and drink lots of water. Just turn off the radio and turn on the radio. Now I have to do it the other way around now. I have to turn on the radio now so that I don't fall asleep. I have to turn on the radio and force myself because now I can just go mechanical just hating everything. So I just don't know what to do, but just fight. It's a fight to stay awake literally.

ThaFormula.com - How do you like it here in L.A. compared to New York?

Saul Williams - It's a nice change of pace. It's great to have this type of space to move and think and what have you. It's difficult because there isn't that strong sense of community that there is in New York. I like the balance that it has provided me since I have spent most of my life in New York. It's great to experience another city. I believe that cities for the most part are about manipulation. You have to learn how to survive in that city. Anybody who comes to L.A. and tries to live in L.A. like they lived in New York I would say is a fool. I'm not trying to be out on the scene here. If I was then I would probably hate L.A. I love what it has to offer nature wise. I love going out to the bay.

ThaFormula.com - How has the response been in the U.S. towards your new album?

Saul Williams - I don't know and I really won't know until I go on tour and I'm not touring now. I'm touring a bit this month, but I'm not touring big time till January. It's doing well though. I think with an album like mine, you get some albums where there is a lot of hype the first week it hits the charts and then it drops. I think mine is the type of album that starts to build. It's just like the album. The more you listen to it, the better you are able to appreciate it. It's not meant to please you necessarily the first time. It may, but it's like most lasting things. I want it to last and I don't want it to be a fly by night thing with people saying that it was dope in 2001. Were trying to do some amazing stuff, like this Freestyle Fellowship shit I'm hearin' right now, which still stands on it's own.

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